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T O P I C R E V I E Wkatie30I have no experience with Pisces and I would like to know if they like a person (as a friend or as a love interest) do they keep them in their hearts?I mean if you develop a more or less close connection to them and then you can't meet for a while do they just go on with their lives and forget about you or do they think of you and do they wait for you to come back into their lives to reconnect and pick up where you two left off? TreeFrogI've known a couple of em, they were both the flighty type, one minute all over you, the next all over someone else - but then again they didn't have a lot of other aspects in their charts to weigh them down and make them stay put - in fact one had Venus conjunct Uranus and pretty much changes girlfriends and friends like most people change their underwear; the other is a Gemini sun and he isn't much better on that front and seems unable to keep his pants on too.charlieIf they love you they will always remain in your life one way or another. Sometimes Pisces need time to figure things out and this process can take weeks, months or years. TreeFrog quote:Originally posted by charlie:If they love you they will always remain in your life one way or another. Sometimes Pisces need time to figure things out and this process can take weeks, months or years. That is not true. In both instances I mentioned, they both told me they loved me, and BOTH said they weren't going to go anywhere. Then promptly me replaced me with other people and I was in the position of sitting back from a distance and watching them basically do the same thing to a long line of women that they did to me. It's absolutely false that Pisces is a sign that has a tendency to stick around. Fixed signs, absolutely. Cardinal? Maybe. Mutable Pisces? No way, unless there's some heavy duty aspects to mitigate it.I should mention here that in both instances the men were Pisces MOONS.katie30The guy I know, his Moon is Aries, his Asc is Gemini, his Venus is Pisces and his Mars is Taurus. If that helps anything...I just don't know what would bind him to me, what would make him behave with me how he does, if he weren't really caring for me...katie30This guy is not the bragging type about women. He had tons of possibilities to get girls, I've experienced it with my own eyes and he is really serious and does not care about anything like getting girls easily. Never even seen him flirting or looking at women like that. He has really high standards about a woman's personality/attitude. But he seems really closed and hard to read, still he is so sensitive and physical/touching-hugging with me...LionFishIf I may ask, what are your ASC, Sun, and Moon katie?Pisces love EVERYONE. I know, I am one Part of the problem here is that "I love you" can mean a lot of things. I have a bff who is a Pisces, I love him with my whole heart and he loves me just as much, but we rarely talk. Usually it's when we need somebody to understand and not judge or to go out and get hammered lol who better than a Pisces to indulge in emotions and drinks!? But daily small talk over coffee is definitely NOT our communication style.When we were young we were both hurt over each other drifting away once in a while, and we always do it! My other bff (I can't name them 1 and 2 because I love them both for loving me just the way I am) is an Aries and she somehow understands that sometimes, I'm just not always there. But when I am I love her and her family with all of my heart like I never left... that's friendships though.I'm not a flighty Pisces in love by any means. I'm also a Sun Pisces, not a Moon. And honestly it would make perfect sense to me that a Moon Pisces would allow this on-again off-again in a love relationship because it deals with your deeper emotions, and it might suit him emotionally to drift between deep feelings between people the way I do my circles of friends...If he loves you, he loves you. He can't stop that or deny it, but can he be a steady faithful support you need? Maybe if other things point to it. Say his Venus in Taurus or Libra. Or maybe like a Saturn sextile or trine Venus. His Moon Conj, sextile or trine your Sun would make him supportive of YOU in a relationship. But being THERE and being supportive are two different things. Saturn may HAVE to be involved, which doesn't always make things exactly pleasant, and in turn makes fish swim away if they aren't ready to deal with the challenge. You might have yourself a catch-22 here..But this is only one planet of many! What does his natal chart look like? Uranus conjunct, square, or opp Venus or Moon perhaps? Or maybe Pluto instead of Uranus? Don't base it just on his Pisces Moon. I imagine he's a rather sweet, loving person.------------------Leo ASC, Pis Sun, Tau moonkatie30Hi LionFish!My Sun is Aqua, my Moon and ASC is Virgo.You misread the comments, the guy I talk about has his Moon is Aries, not Pisces.He is Pisces Sun, Aries Moon, Aqua Mercury, Pisces Venus and Taurus Mars.I don't know much about aspects but this is what the calculator gives me about him:Sun Conjunction VenusSun Trine Pluto Moon Square Saturn Moon Square Neptune Mercury Square Mars Mercury Square JupiterMercury Trine AscendantMercury Conjunction MidheavenVenus Sextile Saturn Venus Sextile NeptuneVenus Trine PlutoVenus Conjunction MidheavenMars Conjunction Jupiter Mars Square Midheaven Jupiter Square Midheaven Saturn Conjunction Uranus Saturn Conjunction Neptune Saturn Sextile Pluto Uranus Conjunction Neptune Uranus Opposition AscendantUranus Sextile MidheavenNeptune Sextile Pluto And what it says about him and me:My Asc opposition his VenusMy Jupiter in trine with his VenusMy Neptune sextile with his MercuryMy Pluto trine with his MercuryMy Moon opposition his VenusMy Moon trine with his Saturn, Uranus and NeptuneMy Mercury trine with his Mars and JupiterMy Jupiter sextile with his Saturn and NeptuneMy Uranus opposition with his JupiterMy Sun trine with his Asc.Does this tell more?It is just really weird for me to comprehend how someone can be so all over you whenever you are together (I mean at the same place) and all the time hold your hand and hug you and such and then forget about you. I don't say he will forget about me... I don't know yet.I just wanted to know the general behavior or attitude of Pisces in a situation like this. Cause he all the time referred to wanting to see me and do stuff with me once I am back. So he is rather the initiatior.And I know, if I like/love you, time and space just makes it stronger. And I don't forget about you and I am eager to see you again...ChicanesI'm not sure whether you're asking "will he remember me?" or "will he come back?" in this topic. What are you being kept apart by, distance? Have you been in contact since your cuddling days?I have almost the same placements as him except with a Pisces Moon instead of Aries and a Scorpio rising (which puts Pluto in my first house and makes me much more intense and loyal) so I'm not sure how much his Gemini Rising and Aries Moon would modify that for him. Maybe he was born a couple of days after me. If I love somebody, and then they hurt me, I may swim away for weeks, months, even years depending on how deep the hurt was but after the pain has healed, I always tend to think of them fondly and always remember them and the affection we shared and will wish them well in their lives, sincerely, even if they're not involved in my life anymore. Sometimes I think Pisces worry too much about the other person and their lives, such as "I don't want to disturb them", "I don't want to impose" and all these considerations that it can take away the boldness. I'm working on it myself but he has an Aries Moon which may counter-balance that as you said he was being the initiator. So why not follow through with his plans if you wanted to see him again? As he probably does want to do these things, he probably just wants you to actually make the physical plans to do them rather than him daydreaming about them?Taurus Mars makes me loyal too and it also makes me a lazy procrastinator which doesn't help with the passivity. It does also make me very patient and chilled out. I'd be able to do long distance relationships because of it. I'm also an extreme loner so I think that makes me more appreciative of the friendships I do have and that factors in. This is just my perspective as well, I'm not sure if your guy will be the same. I hope that helps in some small way? katie30Hi Chicanes! Thank you for your reply. Everything helps with understanding this guy. :-)No we've never been together and I have never hurt him. We are in this "hanging in the air" phase for like 2 months. I know him for 6 months. First we gradually got to know each other and got closer and closer, then came the phyiscal contact, like holding my hand and holding me in his arms.With will he remember me, I referred to whether he will pick up where we left off once I am back.We do seasonal work on an island and he is from here, he stays here all the year, I go home in a week and then I come back in two and a half months, cause I decided I wanna live here. So now after seeing each other for 6 months on a weekly basis, we will be far. And I interested if in general a Pisces says so many times that he will miss me, that he wants to see me when I come back and he always makes indirect comments about what we should/could do together... does he mean them? Or is it just talking into the air... (cause I know that kind of people too)"Sometimes I think Pisces worry too much about the other person and their lives, such as "I don't want to disturb them", "I don't want to impose" and all these considerations that it can take away the boldness."This is really important for me to hear. Cause I realized that when we are together, he is rather coming after me, he is all the time the initiatior. But when we are apart, I am the one who sents him msgs or anything like that... he never initiates...And I always thought, sure he does not care too much, but I hope it is just what you say."So why not follow through with his plans if you wanted to see him again? As he probably does want to do these things, he probably just wants you to actually make the physical plans to do them rather than him daydreaming about them?"Is that possible? It might be that he is just waiting for me to make the actual plans? I think I will give him the time to process and see for himself if he misses me while I'm gone and when I come back I will initiate meetings. And then I see...LionFish quote:You misread the comments, the guy I talk about has his Moon is Aries, not Pisces.Oops! I certainly did! I read what TreeFrog had wrote and it was stuck in my brain quote:I just wanted to know the general behavior or attitude of Pisces in a situation like this. Cause he all the time referred to wanting to see me and do stuff with me once I am back. So he is rather the initiatior.And I know, if I like/love you, time and space just makes it stronger. And I don't forget about you and I am eager to see you again...I would say he's serious. But 2 months is a long time to be away. I wouldn't say he'll forget you when you're not there because that's not what happens. Pisces just like to be loved back. Make sure you give him attention. It's kind of like dealing with a Leo You just don't have to use as much flattery to get your point across lol I'm sure he will be eager to see you when you return! Pisces love reunions (we're GREAT at them because we tend to leave and come back a lot.) And if he has been being honest with you, the way he says he feels will be waiting for you when you come back too..hippichickOnce a Pisces is hurt, they are hurt and they usually dont go back..WE love love unconditionally for the sake of love, but we are easily hurt and that hurts deep~We dont need time to mull things over, cause we always know what is going on.Liz Greene once put it, and I am not going to quote exactly, but it was to the jist of, the Pisces woman scorned is more than a witch (she lamented earlier in the script about how Pisces is forever the witch),, but a vampire....I have been a Fish for 50 years and I dated one..My kid is an Aries with a Pisces moon and for all these three Pisces I will say again, once we are done we are done due to the terrible hurt we suffer.Doesnt mean we wont love you forever, but definately does mean we cant be "in love" with you ever again~terri~neptunicityYeah once a piscean has been hurt or disappointed, there is no turning back, we will cut all communication with you. But if you initiate contact, then we are fake enough to be accommodating towards you though we strongly dislike you.Regarding love interests, well I'm a pisces sun and moon, so I'm definitely wishy washy. Even if I strongly like the person, if there was no contact for a long period of time, it fades away. But you can be assured that if you have touched their hearts enough, you will never be forgotten for decades even if you don't see each other anymore. As for the case of feelings, well, they're not that very stable. Very liable to waver.hippichick quote:Originally posted by neptunicity:Yeah once a piscean has been hurt or disappointed, there is no turning back, we will cut all communication with you. But if you initiate contact, then we are fake enough to be accommodating towards you though we strongly dislike you.Regarding love interests, well I'm a pisces sun and moon, so I'm definitely wishy washy. Even if I strongly like the person, if there was no contact for a long period of time, it fades away. But you can be assured that if you have touched their hearts enough, you will never be forgotten for decades even if you don't see each other anymore. As for the case of feelings, well, they're not that very stable. Very liable to waver.LOVE it! well said!thank you!katie30LionFish!So you say 2 months is a long time? :-( Well with that I can't do anything cause I have to go home for the holidays and also to pick up winterclothes and all.I would have thought that the time I spend away might make him realize that he is missing me? You know, I was thinking about making sure that we keep in touch meanwhile too, but I don't wanna seem desperate or too much running after him, if you know what I mean...It is so damn hard to know what's right to do and what not...Anyways, thank you for your comments and for your support. :-)LionFishYou're very welcome katie And yes, 2 months is a long time, but not a horribly long time.Talking to him won't seem desperate, it will let him know you're still interested in him, which he'll need without you being there to remind him physically I hope this works out in your favor!katie30I hope too, LionFish, that it works out. So many rational reasons are against it, but still... when was love rational? ;-)LionFishNever!!!I've been in love with a man for about 6 years now, seeing him off and on for the first 2. Then there was a steady time where we were in each other's company and the world is right. Then for the past 2 years we haven't been "allowed" to see each other because of his girlfriend. They are broken up now and since the day they broke up we've been back in contact every single day. And every time I see him my feelings are just as strong and no other person has EVER made me feel the way he does!(take that wish-washy Pisces stereotype!!!!)I'm sure he won't forget you in 2 months! For two reasons: I'm a Pisces, I don't forget people.. And, I'm also a Katie, and Katie's tend to be unforgettable! katie30LionFish! :-)))) That's what I'm talking about... love is never rational.That's why I get always swept away by water signs... And I know from the beginning that they will kill me with their wishy-washy ways and they take eternal time to make a move (if ever) and still they catch me like I'm in a freaking spiderweb and I can't escape it.You know right now I'm at least 50% happy that I'm going home in a week. Cause I know I need distance to cool down and be myself again. And I think a lot about what I should do once I am back. Sometimes my head tells me I should really walk away forever and never look back... even if I return, I should not get in touch with him, but then again, I have no idea what I will do! For days mostly I am thinking about him. I can't get out of my head how he was with me the last 3 nights we were working together. It felt like he knew we are out of time and he tried to use every second to have me close... And it is really hard for me, cause here comes the difference...When I behave like that, IT IS CAUSE I KNOW I LIKE SOMEONE A LOT AND WANNA BE WITH THEM. It just scares me that there are people who behave honestly like this and then the next moment they are completely somewhere else... :-(
I mean if you develop a more or less close connection to them and then you can't meet for a while do they just go on with their lives and forget about you or do they think of you and do they wait for you to come back into their lives to reconnect and pick up where you two left off?
quote:Originally posted by charlie:If they love you they will always remain in your life one way or another. Sometimes Pisces need time to figure things out and this process can take weeks, months or years.
That is not true. In both instances I mentioned, they both told me they loved me, and BOTH said they weren't going to go anywhere. Then promptly me replaced me with other people and I was in the position of sitting back from a distance and watching them basically do the same thing to a long line of women that they did to me.
It's absolutely false that Pisces is a sign that has a tendency to stick around. Fixed signs, absolutely. Cardinal? Maybe. Mutable Pisces? No way, unless there's some heavy duty aspects to mitigate it.
I should mention here that in both instances the men were Pisces MOONS.
I just don't know what would bind him to me, what would make him behave with me how he does, if he weren't really caring for me...
Pisces love EVERYONE. I know, I am one
Part of the problem here is that "I love you" can mean a lot of things. I have a bff who is a Pisces, I love him with my whole heart and he loves me just as much, but we rarely talk. Usually it's when we need somebody to understand and not judge or to go out and get hammered lol who better than a Pisces to indulge in emotions and drinks!? But daily small talk over coffee is definitely NOT our communication style.When we were young we were both hurt over each other drifting away once in a while, and we always do it! My other bff (I can't name them 1 and 2 because I love them both for loving me just the way I am) is an Aries and she somehow understands that sometimes, I'm just not always there. But when I am I love her and her family with all of my heart like I never left... that's friendships though.
I'm not a flighty Pisces in love by any means. I'm also a Sun Pisces, not a Moon. And honestly it would make perfect sense to me that a Moon Pisces would allow this on-again off-again in a love relationship because it deals with your deeper emotions, and it might suit him emotionally to drift between deep feelings between people the way I do my circles of friends...
If he loves you, he loves you. He can't stop that or deny it, but can he be a steady faithful support you need? Maybe if other things point to it. Say his Venus in Taurus or Libra. Or maybe like a Saturn sextile or trine Venus. His Moon Conj, sextile or trine your Sun would make him supportive of YOU in a relationship. But being THERE and being supportive are two different things. Saturn may HAVE to be involved, which doesn't always make things exactly pleasant, and in turn makes fish swim away if they aren't ready to deal with the challenge. You might have yourself a catch-22 here..
But this is only one planet of many! What does his natal chart look like? Uranus conjunct, square, or opp Venus or Moon perhaps? Or maybe Pluto instead of Uranus? Don't base it just on his Pisces Moon. I imagine he's a rather sweet, loving person.
------------------Leo ASC, Pis Sun, Tau moon
My Sun is Aqua, my Moon and ASC is Virgo.
You misread the comments, the guy I talk about has his Moon is Aries, not Pisces.
He is Pisces Sun, Aries Moon, Aqua Mercury, Pisces Venus and Taurus Mars.
I don't know much about aspects but this is what the calculator gives me about him:
Sun Conjunction VenusSun Trine Pluto Moon Square Saturn Moon Square Neptune Mercury Square Mars Mercury Square JupiterMercury Trine AscendantMercury Conjunction MidheavenVenus Sextile Saturn Venus Sextile NeptuneVenus Trine PlutoVenus Conjunction MidheavenMars Conjunction Jupiter Mars Square Midheaven Jupiter Square Midheaven Saturn Conjunction Uranus Saturn Conjunction Neptune Saturn Sextile Pluto Uranus Conjunction Neptune Uranus Opposition AscendantUranus Sextile MidheavenNeptune Sextile Pluto And what it says about him and me:
My Asc opposition his VenusMy Jupiter in trine with his VenusMy Neptune sextile with his MercuryMy Pluto trine with his MercuryMy Moon opposition his VenusMy Moon trine with his Saturn, Uranus and NeptuneMy Mercury trine with his Mars and JupiterMy Jupiter sextile with his Saturn and NeptuneMy Uranus opposition with his JupiterMy Sun trine with his Asc.
Does this tell more?
It is just really weird for me to comprehend how someone can be so all over you whenever you are together (I mean at the same place) and all the time hold your hand and hug you and such and then forget about you. I don't say he will forget about me... I don't know yet.
I just wanted to know the general behavior or attitude of Pisces in a situation like this. Cause he all the time referred to wanting to see me and do stuff with me once I am back. So he is rather the initiatior.
And I know, if I like/love you, time and space just makes it stronger. And I don't forget about you and I am eager to see you again...
I have almost the same placements as him except with a Pisces Moon instead of Aries and a Scorpio rising (which puts Pluto in my first house and makes me much more intense and loyal) so I'm not sure how much his Gemini Rising and Aries Moon would modify that for him. Maybe he was born a couple of days after me.
If I love somebody, and then they hurt me, I may swim away for weeks, months, even years depending on how deep the hurt was but after the pain has healed, I always tend to think of them fondly and always remember them and the affection we shared and will wish them well in their lives, sincerely, even if they're not involved in my life anymore.
Sometimes I think Pisces worry too much about the other person and their lives, such as "I don't want to disturb them", "I don't want to impose" and all these considerations that it can take away the boldness. I'm working on it myself but he has an Aries Moon which may counter-balance that as you said he was being the initiator. So why not follow through with his plans if you wanted to see him again? As he probably does want to do these things, he probably just wants you to actually make the physical plans to do them rather than him daydreaming about them?
Taurus Mars makes me loyal too and it also makes me a lazy procrastinator which doesn't help with the passivity. It does also make me very patient and chilled out. I'd be able to do long distance relationships because of it.
I'm also an extreme loner so I think that makes me more appreciative of the friendships I do have and that factors in. This is just my perspective as well, I'm not sure if your guy will be the same. I hope that helps in some small way?
Thank you for your reply. Everything helps with understanding this guy. :-)
No we've never been together and I have never hurt him. We are in this "hanging in the air" phase for like 2 months. I know him for 6 months. First we gradually got to know each other and got closer and closer, then came the phyiscal contact, like holding my hand and holding me in his arms.
With will he remember me, I referred to whether he will pick up where we left off once I am back.We do seasonal work on an island and he is from here, he stays here all the year, I go home in a week and then I come back in two and a half months, cause I decided I wanna live here. So now after seeing each other for 6 months on a weekly basis, we will be far. And I interested if in general a Pisces says so many times that he will miss me, that he wants to see me when I come back and he always makes indirect comments about what we should/could do together... does he mean them? Or is it just talking into the air... (cause I know that kind of people too)
"Sometimes I think Pisces worry too much about the other person and their lives, such as "I don't want to disturb them", "I don't want to impose" and all these considerations that it can take away the boldness."
This is really important for me to hear. Cause I realized that when we are together, he is rather coming after me, he is all the time the initiatior. But when we are apart, I am the one who sents him msgs or anything like that... he never initiates...And I always thought, sure he does not care too much, but I hope it is just what you say.
"So why not follow through with his plans if you wanted to see him again? As he probably does want to do these things, he probably just wants you to actually make the physical plans to do them rather than him daydreaming about them?"
Is that possible? It might be that he is just waiting for me to make the actual plans? I think I will give him the time to process and see for himself if he misses me while I'm gone and when I come back I will initiate meetings. And then I see...
quote:You misread the comments, the guy I talk about has his Moon is Aries, not Pisces.
Oops! I certainly did! I read what TreeFrog had wrote and it was stuck in my brain
quote:I just wanted to know the general behavior or attitude of Pisces in a situation like this. Cause he all the time referred to wanting to see me and do stuff with me once I am back. So he is rather the initiatior.And I know, if I like/love you, time and space just makes it stronger. And I don't forget about you and I am eager to see you again...
I would say he's serious. But 2 months is a long time to be away. I wouldn't say he'll forget you when you're not there because that's not what happens. Pisces just like to be loved back. Make sure you give him attention. It's kind of like dealing with a Leo You just don't have to use as much flattery to get your point across lol
I'm sure he will be eager to see you when you return! Pisces love reunions (we're GREAT at them because we tend to leave and come back a lot.) And if he has been being honest with you, the way he says he feels will be waiting for you when you come back too..
WE love love unconditionally for the sake of love, but we are easily hurt and that hurts deep~
We dont need time to mull things over, cause we always know what is going on.
Liz Greene once put it, and I am not going to quote exactly, but it was to the jist of, the Pisces woman scorned is more than a witch (she lamented earlier in the script about how Pisces is forever the witch),, but a vampire....
I have been a Fish for 50 years and I dated one..My kid is an Aries with a Pisces moon and for all these three Pisces I will say again, once we are done we are done due to the terrible hurt we suffer.
Doesnt mean we wont love you forever, but definately does mean we cant be "in love" with you ever again~
terri~
Regarding love interests, well I'm a pisces sun and moon, so I'm definitely wishy washy. Even if I strongly like the person, if there was no contact for a long period of time, it fades away. But you can be assured that if you have touched their hearts enough, you will never be forgotten for decades even if you don't see each other anymore. As for the case of feelings, well, they're not that very stable. Very liable to waver.
quote:Originally posted by neptunicity:Yeah once a piscean has been hurt or disappointed, there is no turning back, we will cut all communication with you. But if you initiate contact, then we are fake enough to be accommodating towards you though we strongly dislike you.Regarding love interests, well I'm a pisces sun and moon, so I'm definitely wishy washy. Even if I strongly like the person, if there was no contact for a long period of time, it fades away. But you can be assured that if you have touched their hearts enough, you will never be forgotten for decades even if you don't see each other anymore. As for the case of feelings, well, they're not that very stable. Very liable to waver.
LOVE it!
well said!
thank you!
So you say 2 months is a long time? :-( Well with that I can't do anything cause I have to go home for the holidays and also to pick up winterclothes and all.
I would have thought that the time I spend away might make him realize that he is missing me?
You know, I was thinking about making sure that we keep in touch meanwhile too, but I don't wanna seem desperate or too much running after him, if you know what I mean...
It is so damn hard to know what's right to do and what not...
Anyways, thank you for your comments and for your support. :-)
And yes, 2 months is a long time, but not a horribly long time.
Talking to him won't seem desperate, it will let him know you're still interested in him, which he'll need without you being there to remind him physically
I hope this works out in your favor!
I've been in love with a man for about 6 years now, seeing him off and on for the first 2. Then there was a steady time where we were in each other's company and the world is right. Then for the past 2 years we haven't been "allowed" to see each other because of his girlfriend. They are broken up now and since the day they broke up we've been back in contact every single day. And every time I see him my feelings are just as strong and no other person has EVER made me feel the way he does!(take that wish-washy Pisces stereotype!!!!)
I'm sure he won't forget you in 2 months! For two reasons: I'm a Pisces, I don't forget people.. And, I'm also a Katie, and Katie's tend to be unforgettable!
That's why I get always swept away by water signs... And I know from the beginning that they will kill me with their wishy-washy ways and they take eternal time to make a move (if ever) and still they catch me like I'm in a freaking spiderweb and I can't escape it.
You know right now I'm at least 50% happy that I'm going home in a week. Cause I know I need distance to cool down and be myself again. And I think a lot about what I should do once I am back. Sometimes my head tells me I should really walk away forever and never look back... even if I return, I should not get in touch with him, but then again, I have no idea what I will do! For days mostly I am thinking about him. I can't get out of my head how he was with me the last 3 nights we were working together. It felt like he knew we are out of time and he tried to use every second to have me close... And it is really hard for me, cause here comes the difference...
When I behave like that, IT IS CAUSE I KNOW I LIKE SOMEONE A LOT AND WANNA BE WITH THEM. It just scares me that there are people who behave honestly like this and then the next moment they are completely somewhere else... :-(
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